Yesterday one my Harry Potter screencaps hit 100 notes on Tumblr. I'm a sucker for this kind of artificial validation, so I publicly thanked my 100th note-giver (what's up Alice?) and made a joke about her URL, which is the rather clever GenderBlindItem (with that one URL you managed to make clear that your blog is a place for both celebrity gossip and actual political discussion--I'm so fucking jealous). I alluded to the debate over gender neutral pronouns (nobody can decide on one! All of them sound so silly!) and used the word "herm." What I think I actually meant to use was the word "hir," which is one of the least awkward gender-neutral pronouns heretofore invented. The transgenders should have been happy I didn't use "zie"! That's the one to be embarrassed about! But anyway, an anonymous transgender reader promptly jumped down my throat, and rather than shrink away or post a gif of Leonardo DiCaprio walking down the street next to Antoine Dodson wearing "deal with it" shades or something I decided to try to have a reasoned debate with this person. They sent me two messages in rapid succession, I responded to both, and they never wrote back. OH WELL. But I am posting our sort-of correspondence hear in the hopes that others will talk about this, because one of my big points was: we should talk about this stuff!Anonymous asked: As a genderqueer person, I found your mocking of gender neutral pronouns and use of transphobic slurs (herm) incredibly offensive.
zaclittle wrote: As a literary-minded person, the never-ending debate over gender-neutral pronouns amuses me. WE CAN’T GO WITH “THEIR” BECAUSE IT THROWS OFF SUBJECT/PRONOUN AGREEMENT! I think you and I both know that there are a lot of kids out there who would be HAPPY to throw subject/pronoun agreement out with the bathwater, but here’s the other thing, anonymous: we can either fight amongst ourselves about politically correct language forever or we can accept that our language system, our legal system, our EVERYTHING is ill-equipped to grapple with the sort of gender/orientation/equality questions we are now trying to answer for the community at large. The debate over appropriate pronoun use is like Homer Simpson trying to force two mismatched puzzle pieces together. THE PUZZLE IS THE PROBLEM, you’re playing the wrong game, with the wrong pieces and the wrong board and the wrong etcetera. And then people like YOU waste your time coming after people like ME over something silly and inconsequential (HERM IS A SILLY WORD! Like “bubble” or “plywood” or “astronaut” and if it is used as a transphobic slur by some, well, I didn’t mean it that way, I might have been thinking of “hir” but definitely not “zie” the people who push that shit are FUCKNUTS) instead of doing something more important.
Also, like, not to bust out this hat on you, but as a HUMORIST or whatever I use lots of words that offend people and most of them can infer from context that I am not being hateful. I can use the word “faggot” in a tweet without offending my many gay followers, because they know I “get it” and I (indirectly, usually) am mocking the people who ignorantly, hatefully mock them (sometimes when I do that it’s more about the music of the phrase). Similarly, I was joking about long-winded debates over gender-neutral language (sort of like this one, shit!) and I think if you go back, with that in mind, your incredible offense will be downgraded to minor offense/discomfort, AS YOU SHOULD FEEL because of the above stuff about wasting time on silly things. I only want to be a little offensive. Like a soccer team.
zaclittle wrote: As a literary-minded person, the never-ending debate over gender-neutral pronouns amuses me. WE CAN’T GO WITH “THEIR” BECAUSE IT THROWS OFF SUBJECT/PRONOUN AGREEMENT! I think you and I both know that there are a lot of kids out there who would be HAPPY to throw subject/pronoun agreement out with the bathwater, but here’s the other thing, anonymous: we can either fight amongst ourselves about politically correct language forever or we can accept that our language system, our legal system, our EVERYTHING is ill-equipped to grapple with the sort of gender/orientation/equality questions we are now trying to answer for the community at large. The debate over appropriate pronoun use is like Homer Simpson trying to force two mismatched puzzle pieces together. THE PUZZLE IS THE PROBLEM, you’re playing the wrong game, with the wrong pieces and the wrong board and the wrong etcetera. And then people like YOU waste your time coming after people like ME over something silly and inconsequential (HERM IS A SILLY WORD! Like “bubble” or “plywood” or “astronaut” and if it is used as a transphobic slur by some, well, I didn’t mean it that way, I might have been thinking of “hir” but definitely not “zie” the people who push that shit are FUCKNUTS) instead of doing something more important.
Also, like, not to bust out this hat on you, but as a HUMORIST or whatever I use lots of words that offend people and most of them can infer from context that I am not being hateful. I can use the word “faggot” in a tweet without offending my many gay followers, because they know I “get it” and I (indirectly, usually) am mocking the people who ignorantly, hatefully mock them (sometimes when I do that it’s more about the music of the phrase). Similarly, I was joking about long-winded debates over gender-neutral language (sort of like this one, shit!) and I think if you go back, with that in mind, your incredible offense will be downgraded to minor offense/discomfort, AS YOU SHOULD FEEL because of the above stuff about wasting time on silly things. I only want to be a little offensive. Like a soccer team.
Anonymous asked: Also, telling people to use "whichever one [they] like" is cissexist. You don't get to decide which pronouns to use to refer to someone else. It is their own, personal identity. People have to use whichever pronouns that person identifies with.
zaclittle wrote: In college it took me a long time to understand the idea of academic modeling, because it’s so abstract, and so the point you are gleaning from any research you do is therefore THAT MUCH MORE abstract. You can only get at a fraction of the truth, because you can only look at a fraction of the picture to really know anything definitively. This is especially true for Political Science, and I am sure it sucks for areas in which I am not as well-versed (like biology, HEYOOOOO).
This stuff, the stuff that you are doing right now, is debilitatingly abstract. People don’t understand it, all they know is they should NEVER TALK ABOUT IT, because if they do, people like you will JUMP DOWN THEIR THROATS. SO instead of having meaningful dialogue about these sort of things, we have THIS. And we have the people who I am sure do not even take this much time to respond to you. And just to further highlight the fact that this isn’t helping anyone: why are you anonymous?
5 comments:
YA BURNT Anonymous!
Granted I don't write a lot of gender neutral characters in my stories but I whole-heartedly agree with you that our language isn't designed to be gender neutral. If you try to remove gender clauses from your writing you just come off as a bad writer.
Is "shim" considered offensive cause I think I've used that one before? Point is, if someone is going to get bent out of shape over something as silly as Zac Little's use of the word herm, then that person needs to take a good long look in the mirror and chill the f*ck out.
You're right, Zac, we do need to talk about this stuff. Something I have been noticing on tumblr is that people in the transgender community sort of just assume that the rest of us should intuitively know how to refer to them, etc. when it's a really esoteric issue. The last thing I want to do is to offend or marginalize anyone; I genuinely want to know what I'm supposed to do. I will never know what it is like to be transgender, but I know what it's like when someone tries to shove you in a box and say "this is who you are and this is your role in society", so I'm definitely sympathetic to the aims. 'Help me help you!' or whatever.
I was so glad when I saw that on my dash because I have wanted to talk to other people about this for so long but I didn't know how to bring it up without being an asshole.
I think it's certainly something that should be discussed more, but finding the right way to do it is difficult. I can't even begin to understand what transgendered people must go through on a daily basis or how that would effect their view of the world, including what they find offensive. The best a cisgendered person could do is listen to them or read their experiences, but even then we'll never really understand. And I don't think it's up to me to tell them how they should feel about that. Assuming I know how they feel or how they *should* feel just smacks of privilege. However, both cis-and transgendered need to be open to hearing the questions and views of the other or a much needed discussion and recognition of rights will never occur. There is a difference between educating someone and just automatically taking offense at everything they say. If a person isn't purposely being offensive, it's better to approach with the idea of opening a dialogue to educate them rather than jumping on them.
Plus, gender is such a complicated thing. Most of what we think about it is purely social construct anyway. I can say I feel like a girl, but what does that really mean? And how much of it is who I inherently am or what I've been taught? Plus, while I might identify as a girl, many of my interests, likes, and behavior are what would be considered male. It's easy to say that someone is either cis- or trans-, but nothing is that black and white. I read the book Parrotfish awhile back (which is actually what got me interested in the whole gender-identity debate recently) and it has this explanation I really liked using the idea of a football field as gender, with stereotypical super girly on one end and stereotypical super guy-ish on the other, but with most people falling in between. Until people are able to recognize that it's more complicated than just one or the other, we won't people able to have a constructive conversation about it either.
As far as language goes, I hate "them" (though I use it, obviously, but I hate him/her more). We really do need a gender-neutral pronoun that isn't grammatically incorrect. I tend to refer people by how they identify, but if you don't know or you're talking generically it's a pain in the ass.
So, yeah, once again my comment ended up way longer than I intended.
First let me start by saying that I understand the frustration over getting used to using gender neutral pronouns, its annoying. That said our language is not currently set up to represent the vast array of identities within our society but that is the greatest thing about language, it can change! New words can be created and old words can change there meanings, part of the definition of a language is that it changes to fit the needs of the people using it. One day people will look back and wonder how we ever got by with such a limited vocabulary.
Second according to many sources the term herm is not a slur against trans people it is part of system of identification that distinguishes between different types of intersex people. The term herm is used to distinguish between hermaphrodites (people who fit directly in the middle of the intersex spectrum) from pseudohermaphrodites ferm (people who fall on the more feminine side of the spectrum) and merm (people who fall on the more masculine side). These categories along with male and female make up what many people believe are the 5 sexes (although there are many people who believe there are a lot more if not an infinite number of sexes). These terms and concepts along with many fascinating ideas can be read about in “The Gendered Society” By Michael Kimmel.
Total gold medal comment right there, Anon! Even-tempered, to-the point, informative without being condescending. More comments about this sort of thing should be like this. You're a credit to your gender, or whatever. :)
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